It is currently 22 May 2013 00:42

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 07:13 
New forum contributor
New forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 14 Apr 2010 04:10
Posts: 4
Do you believe that divorce is okay in certain situations? Why?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 09:22 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 31 Oct 2009 23:37
Posts: 255
a-m

I've never wondered why divorce was legal, but wonder why marriage is legal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 09:30 
User avatar
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 06:21
Posts: 1114
Location: New England, Australia
Divorce has become legal in most countries because Governments have realized, as did most religions long ago, that when two people no longer wish to live together then there is no good reason to force them to do so.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 09:35 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:01
Posts: 734
If one party witholds information about themselves and has a false motive for marrying like alleged murderer Desmond Campbell who allegedly married for money, and demonstrated by his behaviour behind his wife's back that he was totally insincere about the relationship.
Thats an obvious case where divorce is the only option.
It would be too late for Janet Campbell however, because her husband allegedly pushed her off a cliff to her death.

I've met two divorcees who've told me their ex husband was a better lover than any of their new partners, which is food for thought.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 11:14 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:31
Posts: 506
"Do you believe that divorce is okay in certain situations? Why?"

I find the question bizarre. It seems to presume that divorce is not okay, well, except maybe in certain exceptional situations. If one person does not want to be married, the marriage ends. Can you think of a situation where one of the two participants in a marriage wants to disolve the marriage and it's not okay?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 11:24 
New forum contributor
New forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 14 Apr 2010 04:10
Posts: 4
patrickt,
the topic of divorce is sometimes hard to deal with because many people have either been through it and it's hard to say whether they were wrong for getting a divorce. But I think that divorce can be wrong in some situations, I've heard in some situations that people get divorced for the sake of being bored of their spouse or they don't like the spouse's family. I don't believe that it's necessarily right to get a divorce than because marriage should be kept sacred.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 11:44 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 17:56
Posts: 747
patrickt wrote:
"Do you believe that divorce is okay in certain situations? Why?"

I find the question bizarre. It seems to presume that divorce is not okay, well, except maybe in certain exceptional situations. If one person does not want to be married, the marriage ends. Can you think of a situation where one of the two participants in a marriage wants to disolve the marriage and it's not okay?

You mean, not okay ethically? Easy-peasy. When you marry you make certain enduring commitments of fidelity, exclusivity, etc. If one spouse wants unilaterally to renege on a commitment which he or she has freely and publicly made, and in return for which he or she has been given, and has accepted, corresponding commitments from the other spouse, doesn’t that raise obvious ethical issues?

In general, isn’t there an ethical obligation to honour commitments freely entered into?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 11:48 
New forum contributor
New forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 10 Apr 2010 09:29
Posts: 4
I believe that in certain situations it is definitely okay. However, it seems that more people turn to divorce rather than trying to resolve marital conflict. The vow "till death do us part" have little substance, and are now little more than a traditional nicety.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 12:33 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:01
Posts: 734
Maybe in these days of DIY marriage vows some omit "for better or worse", and that would be a mistake, because, for many there is a lot of the worse. If you can negotiate the rocky times however your relationship will be all the stronger for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 12:42 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 17:56
Posts: 747
Isn’t that something that, at the very least, you need to clarify explicitly with your intended before you marry? I mean, if you think your marriage vows “have little substance” and are just “a traditional nicety”, while she means what she says and thinks you do too, you’re setting yourself up for trouble, aren’t you?

But there’s more to it than that. The whole point of marriage is that it’s not just something between you and your partner. It’s public. There are – there have to be – witnesses. You’re not just promising something to somebody. Your inviting the community to be a witness to your promise, and to accept and honour it, and to uphold it.

Perhaps you shouldn’t be saying these things if you don’t mean them. You know, ethically. Isn’t a certain degree of honesty an important element of any ethical system?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 12:47 
User avatar
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 06:21
Posts: 1114
Location: New England, Australia
Are we discussing divorce in general, that is as a universal human concept or are we discussing it in a Christian setting? If so, in general or in one particular segment of Christianity?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 12:58 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:01
Posts: 734
Whether or not its a Christian marriage, a contract is made, and the occasion has the documents to prove it.

Many dismiss this as a bit of paper that they don't need to stay together, and never marry.

This completely misses the point of the vows or promises that are made during the ceremony.

Ultimately its remembering the promises and probably also the fact that you made them in public that gives you the resolve to continue through troublesome times.

They are the reason for having the wedding in the first place as I see it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 13:21 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:31
Posts: 506
Peregrinus wrote:
patrickt wrote:
"Do you believe that divorce is okay in certain situations? Why?"

I find the question bizarre. It seems to presume that divorce is not okay, well, except maybe in certain exceptional situations. If one person does not want to be married, the marriage ends. Can you think of a situation where one of the two participants in a marriage wants to disolve the marriage and it's not okay?

You mean, not okay ethically? Easy-peasy. When you marry you make certain enduring commitments of fidelity, exclusivity, etc. If one spouse wants unilaterally to renege on a commitment which he or she has freely and publicly made, and in return for which he or she has been given, and has accepted, corresponding commitments from the other spouse, doesn’t that raise obvious ethical issues?
In general, isn’t there an ethical obligation to honour commitments freely entered into?


Of course. And when those commitments are not being honored, what do you do? Personally, I would like to see an actual written contract with the commitments spelled out. In any case, when the commitments aren't being honored, divorce is a solution.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 13:57 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 17:56
Posts: 747
So if I read you right, Patrick, you’re saying that divorce is OK if your spouse has reneged on the commitments made.

What if your spouse hasn’t reneged, but is still trying to honour the commitments, but you want out? You’re the one who wants to renege on commitments. Is it ethically acceptable for you to get a divorce in that situation? Your earlier post would suggest tthat it is. Are you backing away from that view now?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 14:09 
User avatar
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 06:21
Posts: 1114
Location: New England, Australia
Marriage outside of the Christian tradition is often but the expression of a commercial contract between families/kinship groups and there is an expectation of the marriage lasting and children (male for preference) resulting in the continuation of both the commercial and family aspects of the contract. The representatives, or marriage partners, often have met but once and sometimes not at all, before being (sometimes literally) thrown into the marriage bed. In some societies consumation takes place under a sheet before the assembled families and guests and the husband waving a bloodied piece of cloth for all to see is cause for acclamation, (it is not unknown for the partners to have something sharp handy, just is case). Divorce in such societies is not frowned upon if the partners cannot settle their differences and if all commercial aspects are honoured, the latter having by far the most influence.

We, in Western society tend to take a rather narrow view of divorce.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 14:22 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 00:01
Posts: 734
They still display the sheet from the wedding night in parts of Europe to this day, that's one kind of fraud that deserves to be committed.

Did you see a thirteen year old girl died of internal injuries in Yemen recently after her new husband exercised his conjugal rights? The poor thing, what a ghastly business.

.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 15:09 
User avatar
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 06:21
Posts: 1114
Location: New England, Australia
Quote:
They still display the sheet from the wedding night in parts of Europe to this day, that's one kind of fraud that deserves to be committed

Agree wholeheartedly; someplaces the husband, if he was a good bloke or guilty, would sharpen his thumb nail so that he was sure to have something sharp. I remember a text book illustration showing a thumbnail cut very short on one half and the other half being about a 1/16 th of an inch higher and the short vertical face being filed sharp, not very noticeable but apparently effective.
Those that doubt can try it out :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 19:50 
Forum contributor
Forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 24 Mar 2010 19:54
Posts: 138
Location: Brisbane Australia
Divorce seems to me to be another area where we have thankfully moved away from religious dictates and recognised that women have equal rights to end a relationship. Judaism allows a husband to divorce his wife on trivial grounds, the wife has no rights at all. Christianity strictly speaking does not allow it at all but most churches have been forced to rethink their interpretation of Matthew 5:32. Sadly the Catholic church remains trapped in a timewarp somewhere back in the last millenium.

Most contracts provide for the fact that they may need to be broken as circumstances and people change over time. Trapping people in relationships where they are abused or exploited is more than unethical, it's inhumane.

I am unsure of the cultural basis of the tradition that requires the wife to display proof of her virginity via the stained bedsheet but I understand it is most common in a country with a strong Catholic background. Our opposition leader betrayed his catholic past when he spoke about " the gift a woman should not give away lightly. A strong misogynist trend exists in much of our cultural and religious traditions


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 20:02 
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 17:56
Posts: 747
PhilT wrote:
Divorce seems to me to be another area where we have thankfully moved away from religious dictates and recognised that women have equal rights to end a relationship. Judaism allows a husband to divorce his wife on trivial grounds, the wife has no rights at all. Christianity strictly speaking does not allow it at all but most churches have been forced to rethink their interpretation of Matthew 5:32. Sadly the Catholic church remains trapped in a timewarp somewhere back in the last millenium.

There’s never been a uniform Christian undertstanding of Mt 5:32, and there has always been a diversity of ways in which different Christian traditions have interpreted and applied it. I don’t think this is something that churches have been “forced” into – except in the sense that they are all trying in various ways to reconcile the undoubted distaste for divorce reflected in the gospels with the realities of lived experience.

PhilT wrote:
I am unsure of the cultural basis of the tradition that requires the wife to display proof of her virginity via the stained bedsheet but I understand it is most common in a country with a strong Catholic background.

Among Christian societies, it actually survived longest in the Balkans, where Orthodoxy predominates. But it’s never been a distinctively Christian phenomenon; on the whole, the societies in which (female) virginity-fetishism has traditionally been strongest are not Christian societies at all.

I think this is a characteristic, not so much of this or that religious tradition, but of patriarchy. The more patriarchal a society is, the more likely it is to oppress women, regardless of religious tradition. That’s why you can have a religious tradition which accommodates extensive goddess-veneration in a society which practises widow-burning.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Divorce
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2010 20:08 
User avatar
Major forum contributor
Major forum contributor
Offline

Joined: 26 Oct 2009 06:21
Posts: 1114
Location: New England, Australia
From a blog, for what it's worth:
Quote:
In patriarchal Muslim societies, virginity is the main criterion for the fidelity of unmarried women, the symbol of women's honor and, consequently, of the honor of her male relatives and of society-at-large. Presenting evidence of a bride’s virginity, such as a blood-stained bed sheet, is a central part of the wedding ceremony.


The exact custom varies from place to place, but the required elements are the same - "a blood-stained sheet and a scream". In some places, on a couple's wedding night, the mother of the groom might wait outside the room to hear a scream and then for her son to come out of the room and produce a blood-stained sheet indicating that his bride was virgin. In other places, the couple might retire to the bedroom during the wedding festivities while the crowd waits patiently with bated breath - a loud scream in pain emanating from the bedroom and the groom emerging holding high in his hands a blood-stained sheet as evidence of his bagged trophy is met with the roaring approval of the crowd.

In most cases though still today, the bride is expected to scream in pain from her hymen being ripped upon vaginal penetration and then bleed, thereby staining the sheets. If she does not bleed then she can be accused of not being a virgin and as such the marriage can be declared invalid. In some countries including Iraq, this can be met with dire circumstances with the male relatives immediately going into a primal blood-lusting frenzy and then doing the 'predictable thing'.

Even though the "blood-stained sheet thing" is gradually becoming a thing of the past in some of the more moderate Muslim countries, the obsession with proof of virginity still persists.

And so, on to the subject of insurance. In some places the groom might opt to have his piece of meat "inspected" and "certified" prior to the consummation of the marriage to avoid any unforeseen and potential "problems" that might arise. Until recently, it has been customary in some Muslim countries such as Egypt for midwives to break the hymens of the brides using their fingers thereby establishing the purity of the bride for the sake of the groom. The bride would be taken to the bedroom and told to relax while the midwives lift up her dress, pull down her panties, then bend her over a bed or chair, spread apart her buttocks and then with a white cloth-covered finger deflower the bride. A stuffed envelope given to the midwife earlier by the bride together with some chicken blood and a little slight of hand by the midwife would often be enough to convince the unsuspecting groom that he had indeed bagged himself a virgin.

Today with advanced medical technology, many Muslim women in Europe are now opting for an expensive surgical procedure out of fear to hopefully pass themselves off as virgins to their prospective spouses. While the actual procedure differs in many ways from female circumcision, the overall intent and purpose remains the same.
http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-big-fat-taliban-wedding-other-night.html


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Based on Maroon Fusion theme created by Oxydo, modified by Simone Walsh