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 Post subject: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2009 13:42 
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Cutting edge of violence Lisa CARTY NSW Political Editor
November 1, 2009 .

CRIME figures show Sydney city is still the state's worst knife crime hot spot, with 254 attacks reported last year.

But the Bureau of Crime Statistics data released by Police Minister Michael Daley show a huge rise in knife crimes in the Bankstown local government area, where offences rose from 100 in 2007-08 to 151 in 2008-09.

While the figures point to a statewide drop of 8.2 per cent in knife crimes, Mr Daley has vowed police will continue to crack down on the use of knives and other sharp weapons such as scissors and screwdrivers.

Liverpool, Blacktown, Campbell-town, Newcastle and Canterbury all recorded slight increases in knife crimes, while decreases were recorded in Marrickville, Strathfield, Penrith, Warringah, Rockdale, Wagga Wagga and Holroyd council areas.

Despite recording a decrease of 105, Sydney City recorded the highest number of knife crimes in the state.

Mr Daley praised the police commitment to reducing knife crime. "Police across the state are continually making our streets safer, confiscating knives off people out to cause trouble and - in some cases - serious harm," he said. "Across the state, the number of offences involving a knife or sharp implement is down.

"High-visibility police operations such as Operation Vikings and Operation Vision 5 on our public transport network continue to send a strong message to criminals who carry knives that they will be caught by police.

"In many of these hot spots, police have achieved excellent results in keeping the number of knife-related incidents low. For example, in the Sydney local government area, there has been a drop of 29 per cent.''

The Police Minister said the state had Australia's toughest knife laws and police officers would continue to focus their activities on trouble spots in Sydney's CBD and the western suburbs.

A bill before Parliament will have first-time knife carriers liable for a jail sentence of up to two years, rather than being let off with a $550 fine, unless they can show good reason for having a knife, such as for a fishing expedition.

The bill, drafted by the Reverend Fred Nile, will also introduce a $5500 fine for anyone who refuses to be searched for a knife.

"The Government makes no apologies for this tough stance and I've asked NSW Police Commissioner [Andrew] Scipione to keep me updated about the efforts of police in catching these gutless criminals,'' Mr Daley said.

In 2007-08, knives and other sharp implements were used in 4086 crimes; in 2008-09, that figure had fallen to 3736


Will it be ethical/legal/adviseable for a farmer to carry the traditional pocket knife in a belt pouch when he/she comes to town?


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 08:33 
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I should add the warning that if one lives in one of these areas where knife attacks occur then one mustn't have anything that can be construed as being carried as a weapon of defence. Remember, if asked, that you have a walking stick as an aid to walking.

Remember, and this is most important, that as an ordinary law-abiding citizen you must be defenceless at all times.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 08:41 
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Samuel wrote:
Remember, and this is most important, that as an ordinary law-abiding citizen you must be defenceless at all times.


Even with a knife I'd feel defenceless Samuel.
Why are there so many knife attacks?
Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 16:03 
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Knives are very poor for self-defense, but the danger is very serious if the attacker has one. If you are to be attacked by someone with a knife, just shoot them if they move within six metres (if your gun is in your hand) or nine metres (if holstered).

If you are Australian and not a policeman you have to let them kill you. (edited to add - if that is in fact their intention. Perhaps you deserved it in some way.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 16:39 
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Ideas on why so many knife attacks?

Perhaps we should ask rather 'why so few?' Australia, except for obvious violent subcultures such as the Westie immigrant gangs and the native-born underclasses, is astonishingly docile. Although much fuss is made of US gun violence, over there they kill more with bare hands and knives than Australia, Canada and the UK kill by all methods, and the gun violence is on top of that!


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 17:00 
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What concerns me more is Fred Nile's proposal that a fine be levied on someone who doesn't consent to be searched (ostensibly for a knife - but what has been seen cannot be unseen and this justification is open to abuse). Where does probable cause fit in? Be it for a knife or another reason, not legally being able to refuse a search without probable cause doesn't bode well.

Edit: I don't think the utility of the proposed bill (or any proposed bill) is found in the increased punishment of offenders, but rather the general utility gained for the community. If knife attacks are decreasing, what evidence is there that heavier penalties will help?


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2009 19:18 
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ChrisPer wrote:
Ideas on why so many knife attacks?

Perhaps we should ask rather 'why so few?' Australia, except for obvious violent subcultures such as the Westie immigrant gangs and the native-born underclasses, is astonishingly docile.

Its those subcultures I was referring to as having a lot of knifings.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 18 May 2010 22:59 
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Where does probable cause fit in? Be it for a knife or another reason, not legally being able to refuse a search without probable cause doesn't bode well.

I wonder why this hasn't been discussed, seems to me to be a rather ethics related question.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 18 May 2010 23:13 
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Samuel wrote:
Quote:
Where does probable cause fit in? Be it for a knife or another reason, not legally being able to refuse a search without probable cause doesn't bode well.

I wonder why this hasn't been discussed, seems to me to be a rather ethics related question.


In the U.S., the police are allowed to "pat-down" a person they feel might pose a threat. Anything that feels like a weapon on the pat-down can be checked. No permission is asked so none has to be given.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 19 May 2010 18:07 
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Christine,
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Even with a knife I'd feel defenceless Samuel.
Why are there so many knife attacks?
Any ideas?

Actually, despite what Chris says, in trained hands a knife is a very effective defensive weapon. I can see no reason why the ordinary person ought not be allowed to carry one, unless it is for the safety of criminals who are, after all the reason for the 'Crime Prevention Industry'.
Without a certain level of criminal activity in society there would be a serious downturn in employment, in the police services; corrective services (formerly known as prisons);the security industry; lawyers and the courts. The whole monolithic structure could be be adversley affected.
One would not like to see gowned figures in the dole offices.


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 Post subject: Re: Ethics of knife laws
PostPosted: 21 May 2010 17:49 
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I appreciate that a trained and ready soldier with a knife in his hand is in a fairly strong defensive position against a small number of attackers without firearms. However, without serious training I think the ordinary person is not greatly better off against offenders with experience of committing violent acts. I carry a knife myself, but I don't kid myself that I would be much use against the evildoer. For self-defense, it would be better to have a force advantage that will instantly suggest that an attacker should retreat. If there is not that much advantage, the risk of an actual struggle with actual stabbings and deaths is much higher if a knife is involved - hence the number of knife armed robberies resulting in stabbings is much higher than shootings from gun robberies.

I would prefer a taser for self defense, if not a respectable handgun.


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