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 Post subject: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010 22:05 
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Seems to me that it's just a game and one that teaches firearms safety and is more likely to bring home the dangers that can be associated with real guns than video games which, I contend, do just the opposite.
Quote:
Legal paintballing age on target to be dropped to 12
By Geoff Chambers From: The Daily Telegraph June 02, 2010 12:00AM

PRIMARY school kids will be allowed to shoot at each other in combat situations if the State Government approves a police push to change the rules of paintball.
The NSW Police Force wants the legal age for paintball games dropped from 16 to 12.
That means Year 6 students could handle high-powered weapons in skirmish scenarios. [ what high powered weapons?]

Local paintball operators also have backed school leagues, in which students would compete against each other for points.
Police Minister Michael Daley said he was aware of the police submission, which is expected to be handed to him this month.
"I'll await formal advice from the NSW Police Force on this matter. I would be happy to consult with the industry pending that submission," he said.
Any changes made to the Firearms Registry guidelines would require approval from Mr Daley.

The National Coalition for Gun Control raised concerns last night that lowering the legal age for paintball would set a bad precedent for firearms use.[they would wouldn't they]
"If you allow one [issue] to be reduced, there's no doubt that it will move on to other categories of firearms use," spokeswoman Samantha Lee said. [cojecture, Sam]

But after spending 10 years lobbying for change, Action Paintball Games owner Michael Whybrew has backed the proposed reform, saying the sport had been left behind in Australia due to government restrictions.

"My 13-year-old daughter has been badgering me since she was a little girl because she wants to get out there. You look at all of the kids who suffer from obesity and this would be the perfect remedy," Mr Whybrew said.

"I don't think it is unsafe for a 12-year-old to get involved with paintball. You'll get the same types of injuries playing footy or tripping over a tree stump.

"The safety policies are very strict," he said.

Paintball guns shoot spherical gelatin capsules containing dye and leave welts and bruises on the body. In the US, high schools and universities are involved in regular skirmish battles.

Mr Whybrew, who operates paintball centres at Rouse Hill and in Perth, regularly travels overseas to compete.
He returned from an international tournament in Malaysia on Monday.
"It was easier getting the paintball gun through their customs compared with bringing it back into Australia," he said.

Coloured comments added.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 00:16 
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I'm not sure what you're asking. I am not involved in the emotional arguments about guns. I am familiar with paintball. When my son was in Japan, he participated in paintball battles in the mountains with Japanese friends. That struck me as a tad odd considering the history but neither my son nor his friends were as interested in the history as I.

On the specific point of reducing the age from 16 to 12. I don't think laws should exist absent a reason for them not to exist. I think they should exist only when there is a valid reason for the law to exist. I would believe there is no need for a law establishing age but for minors, parental consent should be required.

For a prespective, in many states in the U.S. children can start hunting, when accompanied by a licensed adult, at the age of 12. In some states, they can hunt alone at 14.

Personally, I would not allow my 12-year old child to participate. I probably would at 16. That's not unlike my position on football. I forbid my son to play football for his school when he was 12. Had he had a wish to play football when he was sixteen I would have argued against but I would have allowed him to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 00:50 
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I too avoid being emotional about guns, deliberatly slanted reporting, and the ethics involved, do tend to rouse some interest as the emotive 'high powered weapons' in the report does. A paint ball gun and a high powered weapon are poles apart, although paint ball guns are legally lethal weapons in NSW.

Then there is Samantha Lee jumping on the band wagon but she has nought to say when someone is murdered with a blunt instrument. She is one of the people who have striven over the years to leave ordinary people with no means of self protection, and here she is moaning about the fact that kids might have some fun and learn some firearms safety.

I'd agree that sixteen is a better age and that it ought to be up to the parents, The legal age here for children to start hunting, with a firearm and under licenced supervision, is twelve, so one wonders why Samantha is getting her knickers in a knot over paintball.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 11:22 
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Paintballing and video games are just fun, and getting a few bruises probably makes it more fun.

During his teen years my son played video games for hour upon hour, he was shooting and blood was spattering every time I came into his room. I used to worry, but needn't have, at twenty four, he's a law abiding citizen who's hobby is landscape photography.

Our kids and young adults need outlets and some adventure, they're hormonally driven, that's why they're creating mayhem hooning around in fast cars.

The only thing that I don't like about the real guns is the state of mind that its owner might have.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 12:25 
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Quote:
The only thing that I don't like about the real guns is the state of mind that its owner might have.

Might well be answered by
Quote:
During his teen years my son played video games for hour upon hour, he was shooting and blood was spattering every time I came into his room. I used to worry, but needn't have, at twenty four, he's a law abiding citizen who's hobby is landscape photography.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 13:11 
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Christine,
How do you feel about motor cars?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 17:16 
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Samuel wrote:
Christine,
How do you feel about motor cars?


Its the same with cars,as it is with guns, its the state of mind of the owner, be it rage, intoxication, distraction or tiredness that can make them a danger.

ChrisPer

I don't understand your comment, sorry.


Last edited by Christine O on 03 Jun 2010 19:19, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 18:02 
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Quote:
Its the same with cars,as it is with guns, its the stae of mind of the owner, be it rage, intoxication, distraction or tiredness that can make them a danger.

It's the same with just about everything that can be used in some way to physically hurt another, so why single out guns?

After the Childers Backpacker fire that claimed the lives of fifteen people there was no cry from the 'do gooders' to ban petrol yet without that substance and its ready availability the fire would have not spread as fast nor been so easy to light.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 18:18 
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Well, the social utility of petrol is much greater than the social utility of guns. So the social cost of banning it is greater. If guns were as vital to our current way of living as petrol is, I doubt if they would have been banned in the first place.

You need to invent the bullet-powered car, Samuel!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 19:38 
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Terrorists use petrol, diesel, kerosene, oil, caustic soda and other products that are freely available. Percussion caps that are used as igniters are also freely available, no licence required. Very precise timing mechanisms are also freely available.
Does the social utility of a product mean that it is acceptable when lives are lost or can be put at serious risk?
Childers was not the only occassion when petrol was used in a multiple murder in Australia.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 20:08 
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Samuel wrote:
Terrorists use petrol, diesel, kerosene, oil, caustic soda and other products that are freely available. Percussion caps that are used as igniters are also freely available, no licence required. Very precise timing mechanisms are also freely available.
Does the social utility of a product mean that it is acceptable when lives are lost or can be put at serious risk?

Yes, it does. Deaths attributable to motor vehicle accidents every year hugely outnumber all deaths attributable to terrorism, arson, and homicides of every kind. But it would never cross our minds to avoid those deaths by banning motor vehicles, because of their enormous social utility.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 22:04 
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Quote:
Percussion caps that are used as igniters are also freely available, no licence required. Very precise timing mechanisms are also freely available.

How about these, I'm sure that their social significance is small.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010 23:48 
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or just another opportunity to start a thread about guns?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 01:08 
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No, it's just another opportunity to highlight the way that some in our society want to control our lives in every way. It is a local disease.

That which doesn't fit their agenda they want to stop but that which would inconvenience them is not acceptable.

Paintball games are unacceptable but the unfettered availability of highly flammable substances that have been used as weapons of multiple murder are OK because to regulate them would cause inconvenience.

Hypocracy or pragmatism?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 01:25 
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Then there was the fifteen Whisky Au Go Go murders:
Quote:
The fire began with the ignition of two 23agi-litre drums of diesel fuel in the building's foyer.


No one called for any restrictions on diesel.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 10:59 
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No. And this tells us something about the difference between diesel and firearms, doesn't it, Samuel?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 12:31 
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Yes indeed, you can kill more people with one shot with diesel or petrol.

It also tells us that you don't need a licence to purchase or possess and you can leave these dangerous substances around where anyone, even children, can have access to them, further more you can transport them in unlocked containers and leave them unguarded in the street.

The potential for misuse is staggering.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 12:51 
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Like I said, Samuel, you need to develop a bullet-powered car before you have a comparison here that anyone is going to take seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 13:59 
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Take it seriously or not, the problem exists; it's only waiting for the first homegrown terrorists to realize that you don't need to hoard explosives to cause major problems for society.

The authorities quickly restricted the fertilizer, ammonium nitrate, when they discovered that would be terrorists were going to use it along with diesel to make explosives. Any restrictions on the diesel component would cost votes. Restricting the ammonium nitrate didn't affect the other destructive uses of diesel and only annoyed some farmers.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it just a game?
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2010 14:11 
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Good man. Thought I’d lost you there for a minute!

Against the downside of allowing a particular product to be available we must balance the downside of not allowing it to be available. This balance, of course, depends on what the product is, and what its various uses are.

The only equipment used in the 9/11 attacks were civil airliners, and the Stanley knives used to hijack them. An awful lot of silly things were suggested in response to those attacks, and not a few of them were actually implemented. But nobody, that I recall, suggested that we should ban either civil airliners or Stanley knives, and anybody who did suggest that would be regarded as too silly to bother with.

The fact that we don’t ban product X because of possibly abuse by criminals is of no help at all in arguing that we also should not ban product Y because of the possibility of similar abuse unless the legitimate uses of the two products are equally similar.

Anyone who suggests that, because we don’t ban diesel, it follows that we shouldn’t ban guns – or alternatively, if we do ban guns, it logically follows that we must also ban diesel – is making the same mistake as the advocate of banning civil airliners and Stanley knives, and can expect pretty much the same reaction.


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