We have ethics but do we demonstrate it when spending our hard earned dollars?
What comes first, price, the environment, health, national interests, supporting third world trade?

I hate the fact that rain forests are being destroyed for use in the furniture trade, but nearly all my new furniture comes into this category.

Should I buy Turkish dried apricots considering they refuse to own up to the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians? I did.

Am I a hypocrite?
Yes because the multitude of choices make every decision political.
Any thoughts?

Your choices are yours to make, and shopping choices can be as symbolic as you like.

In my case I do not buy Woolworths brand milk so as to protect local dairy farmers from interstate competitors and unfair buying pressure (JMO, not the result of careful investigation). I do however buy Nestle products, after learning that the campaign against them for displacing breast milk in poor countries was misguided, having been overtaken by various circumstances decades ago. Basically, Nestle changed its practices appropriately, but local competitors set up and exploited the marketing space Nestle vacated, ultimately making things even worse than they were.

I think its appropriate to disapprove of the Armenian genocide in the fullest way, but to not buy Turkish products because of it is a touch remote. The present government of Turkey are culpable for denial not for genocide, as the two or three generations that have come through replaced the ageing perpetrators. I have visited Istanbul and been awestruck at the cultural heritage of that country for all of us, and highly recommend anyone learn about that region's amazing history INCLUDING the Armenian genocide, that it not be forgotten.

Interesting question "Shopping with ethics".

My approach is to first of all to try, more or less, to minimise buying stuff - minimise consumption. And second, to live and buy local. Turkey and Armenia is too far away in place and time for me to take into account. Not always possible and often there is not enough information to make a well informed decision, but by asking yourself the question, you are step ahead of most of us I reckon.

Sometimes the answer is not as important as asking the question.

No questioning = pot luck.
Questioning = ethical consideration.

Hi all,

I am a new member and noticed that for such an interesting question "Shopping with ethics" did not get the exposure I thought it might so I hope you don't mind me spending my 2 cents worth so to speak.

I agree with you all about buying local with less packaging (reduce/reuse/recycle/rethink! Also borrow>use>return)- it reduces the environmental cost and supports the local economy.
Specifically for food, I grow non genetically modified, chemical free vegetables/fruits/herbs, for self consumption, sell them at the local market or swap them with the neighbours which all provide for community sustainability.

Concerning animal products, for many animal abolitionists the main argument is against specieism, the exploitation of animals for our own benefit. For welfarists, the conditions they are kept in and how they are treated. Recently a pork supplier to Woolworths was convicted of animal cruelty and due to public pressure, ties to this major supplier were severed.

On the subject of milk, I hadn't realised until fairly recently that by consuming milk, the veal industry is indirectly supported by the "production" of calves, usually males. There's a lot more information out there about the life of a dairy cow and you could argue till the cows came home about what constitutes a humane death for an animal at the abattoir and if it is in anyway justifiable.

Major changes seem to be happening across the country when it comes to the ethical treatment of animals - councils are banning battery hen farming, Tasmania are phasing out sow stalls in piggeries and communities are introducing meatless Mondays.

Also, no less important, is the ethics of how you treat yourself and your family- will you buy over processed junk food of no nutritional value, laced with chemicals and genetically modified for half the price? Or will you opt for healthy, fresh, chemical free produce for double the price and double the nutrients continuing to help feed mind and body. Hopefully it is the latter, for these are important choices, we should keep empowering ourselves and keep asking those questions. But remember, ' A questioning man is halfway to being wise.'- Irish Proverb

I would encourage everybody to grow your food, look for empty community land pockets that could be used and see how easy it really is, taste the difference and feel the effects. Cuba was able to achieve a huge degree of economic independence by promoting urban agriculture. Even if it is just a few potted herbs on the window sill your body will thank you for it.

I try to consume no animal, chemical or processed products, and to quote Ghandi* "Live simply so that others may simply live".

*Dale Jamieson's citation in his book 'Ethics and Environment' uses the phrase "often attributed to Ghandi", to suggest that there is no hard evidence.

How about everyone else?

There was a free range egg supplier in my location who had printed on their egg boxes
"You are welcome to look around our farm at any time".
If businesses were all called upon to do likewise, conditions for animals would most likely improve dramatically. For most of us its the out of sight out of mind thing.
After an outcry the importation of Chinese vegetables has been curtailed. I for one look for local vegetables and dairy products. Growing my own vegies wasn't a success.

Giving up milk products is not a reasonable option, its a basic food stuff and its my understanding that the production of soy beans which is a popular substitute is resulting in the destruction of the Amazon rainforest.

I think if you are aware of some horrible crime being committed by some foreign land that is selling a product you would like to buy then yes I think you would be ethically incorrect not to buy a substitute e.g. fair trade in coffee beans etc. Though its always the poor little farmer, who owns some 2m x 2m plot of land to grow enough produce to sell to make enough money to buy food for his 30 hungry kids at home, that bears the brunt of any boycotts. Cause chances are that the govt.'s who run these countries that are committing atrocities will not give a flying f.... about Jethro the farmer and his brood.

That said you can always be over dramatic about it as well. I took a flight one day around the time of the Mururoa Atoll, nuclear testing scandal. The senior flight attendant in 1st class told us that there would be no bottled water today, only tap water, as he had poured it all (15 1L bottles) down the sink. It was Evian so he felt it was his big chance to do the right thing against the offending French. Needless to say, I can only imagine the catering staff would have doubled their order of 15 bottles to 30 for that route when encountering the empty water cart on restocking.

My understanding of world trade is limited, but if I am not mistaken in order to participate in the game, players must buy their right to participate one way or another.

This is a problem for people such as the coffee growers in Tanzania where I grew up, who produce a refined Aribica bean. Most manufacturers buy up masses of cheap Robusta beans to flavour up and sell as beautifully advertised concoctions of pre packaged crap.

Our grocery buying started its downward slide with the advent of supermarkets when each few grams of dried/preserved food became hygenically wrapped in cardboard and cellophane.

Personally I'd love a delivery man to drive around the streets with bulk foodstuffs to buy off the back of his truck, and for that to be the only choice. We'd all be healthier to.

Christne,

When I'm in India the vegetable man calls at the door likewise his 'coconut' counterpart etc. If the wife doesn't feel like cooking or if we've returned late and haven't eaten at a roadside stall, we'll ring the local sandwich maker who delivers piping hot toasted sandwiches to the door. No 'MacDonald Sahib' for us.

Rubi
I forgot to say that pouring the Evian water down the sink is the most elegant protest I have ever heard of. Counter productive as you say, but very appropriate.

Samuel
It's the bringing it to your front door that makes all the difference.
How have supermarkets sucked us into traipsing around aisles which have been stacked in a way to make us forage far and wide for the basic necessities? There must be a psychological trick involved to produce such sheep like obedience. The supermarket makes far greater profits than the producers too.

Christine,

The greatest trick has been the elimination of other retail outlets, in a lot of places the 'Corner Shop' has disappeared. Once inside the supermarket the tricks really begin; 'Specials' that are dearer per 100 (whatever) than the same item further down the aisle. One of the best things that Government has done is to force the stores to display the price per basic unit of measurement as well as the item price.
Another (good) thing to look for is similar products likenesses, if the packaging is the same then check the printing, as on the base of cans; often done by the same machine. Very often the only difference between products will be the label; the can and contents came from the same factory.
Same goes for pickles, a very well known brand (that adds up to 9) will be exactly the same as the 'Store' brand that is sold at a cheaper price.

christine, there is no psychological trick involved to produce such sheep like obedience its just logistics.
Unfortunately it is far simpler logistically for me to pay ridiculous prices for organic goods at "woollies" than to pay 1/2 that said price at the local organic market. To finish a 10 hour day seeing endless patients, picking up my 4 (all under 6) divinities (debatable) from daycare and then parking 1 block away on a busy road, shopping, packing own bags and car all while trying to starve off snatching (at the market) and death by lorry (at the car) is a far too high price to pay for "home grown".
In an ideal world this would be ideal for my sugar free, organic universe - but alas no idealist here - my reality is far too real (or tired/lazy/opportunistic) to enter into any such fanciful Utopia.

Yup, what supermarkets sell is convenience. Going from shop to shop or stall to stall, ordering your goods and then waiting for them to be delivered, as in the good old days, takes a hell of a lot longer than going to the supermarket.

The truth is, most of us want convenience more than we want fresh, wholesome, unpackaged produce. We’ve more-or-less backed ourselves into that with our lifestyle choices. We live much further from work than we used to, so we have to spend more time commuting. We’ve made our roads unsafe for our children, so we have to bring them to and from school ourselves until a far later age than used to be the case. We work longer hours than we used to. We live in larger houses, but smaller households, both of which greatly increase our consumption (and, therefore, our need to shop). And, of course, the big one – in most families, both parents work (for pay). It’s only through both adults working that we can afford all the larger houses, smaller households and increased consumption. The fact that both parents work puts real pressure on anything that has to be done out of working time. Much as we may dislike them, the supermarkets really fill a need here.

Rubi
I to have been the after work last shopper in the supermarket who has to be personally asked to make their way to the checkout, only I was silly enough to do it for a wage of $15 per hour. When I think back I think I would have been much better off not working and living a simpler and far more enjoyable life.
There's all the talk about how busy we all are on the one hand, and on the other there are fattso's multiplying everywhere, and kids that spend most of their time on their bottoms being driven around or sitting in front of a computer. A French friend of mine said how she noticed there are many more fat people here than in France when she returned from her holidays last week.

Peregrinus
I agree we've backed ourselves into a corner with our lifestyle choices. There are many good things the USA has given the world but its eating habits are definitely not one of them!
On Tuesday I had a home cooked meal at the home of an Iraqi ESL student of mine. There was a tasty lentil soup and a bean and chicken (skimpy amounts of chook) casserole, multi veg salad and steamed basmati rice, also home made yoghurt with dates. She buys all the produce at an old fashioned Halal general store, however her kids already crave hot chips and I wonder how long the traditional eating patterns will last.

This post should be renamed - the ethics of convenience and perhaps ignorance, perhaps faith.

"Giving up milk products is not a reasonable option, its a basic food stuff and its my understanding that the production of soy beans which is a popular substitute is resulting in the destruction of the Amazon rainforest."

It's pretty reasonable for vegans and cows. Around 90% of the soyabean crop goes towards feeding them, usually in feedlots, not pretty. Other substitutes include oat milk, rice milk, almond milk. However, if people feel comfortable supporting the veal and dairy industries that is fine, their ethical choice. But people should not make a choice out of ignorance, this is one of the first rules of making an ethical choice - what are the relevant facts? My values of non-violence make consuming animal products significant, the ends do not justify the means.

"We’ve made our roads unsafe for our children"
Aren't we making them sometimes making them unsafer by following these roads of convenience - chemicals, packaging all in the name of saving time and conveniently forgetting what it takes to make a product? It might not manifest in this generation but the next and is manifesting on earth as we speak. Yes we do have our head in the sand, we are in the age of stupid. It seems a lot of people are thinking so short term.

"When I think back I think I would have been much better off not working and living a simpler and far more enjoyable life."
Just do it, it is simple - the hardest step is the first. My wife and I did it 5 years ago and we are using our talents towards building sustainable communities, we do not have much money, but are content and work with people and animals we love.

"there are fattso's multiplying everywhere"
A lot of overweight people I have found have an overburden of emotional problems usually guilt, and calling people "fattso's" doesn't help, in fact it exacerbates the problem.

"I wonder how long the traditional eating patterns will last."
Have faith.

Apologies in advance for any lack of diplomacy.

India
Congratulations on living out your beliefs, its a little late for me now to do the tree change thing, although I do try to live according to the information I have gleaned from various media outlets.

This is often limited and inconsistant as you can see with the information about the soy beans. I buy Australian, or better still west Australian produce if I can because that's where I live. I get toilet paper and detergents that are kind to the environment, and free range eggs.

I know producing animals for meat is a hugely extravant use of agricultural products, so buy only chicken and fish. Organic vegies are too expensive if eaten in a decent quantity and my gardening efforts have been unsuccessful, but I avoid Chinese stuff and US oranges as they must come by container and be too old.

I used the term fattso to emphasis a point, but I say that about myself for being ten kilos over weight. Does substituting names like fattso for a clinical term really help anyone in the long run?

There are so many considerations, like child labour and the destruction of the habitat of gorillas in the Congo in the mining of coltan a mineral used in mobile phones. I heard that using Google increases our carbon footprints somehow and so it goes on................

In one of my lives I worked for a third party warehouse for Colgate Palmolive. We unloaded 25 tonne containers of product bound for specials in supermarkets including Woolworths and Coles.

Regarding toothpaste: From memory the average tube of toothpaste at the time was 150 mg. The specials were 100 mg in the same size package/carton as the 150 mg, that's right..... rattle them and you could pick the difference.

Absolute masters of deception.

What would be your food shopping list when moving in to a new home? I'm moving into a new home with my husband and kids. I want to make a shopping list of the food I need to remember to buy basically. Stuff that last long and isn't really high cost but good.

A months back I made the jump to Aussie Farmers Direct and now have fresh, locally grown food delivered to my front door during the night and pay by direct debit. I love it, and it's good to know local producers are having things their way for a change.
Woolworths "The Fresh Food People", have the mother of all giant warehouses right next to our international airport. Fresh food from where I wonder? China perhaps?

Are you a hypocrite? Based on what you said, I certainly wouldn't say you're a hypocrite. We all make decisions when we purchase. Some decisions are logical, some aren't. Some decisions are downright stupid and some aren't.

I buy food for a family of eight Indians. The younger boys don't even look like they're related to the older boys who were grown before I started buying food. They're smaller and have health problems related to infant and childhood malnutrition.

Now, I buy the groceries in bulk from Sam's Club. My only criteria, not being a wealthy liberal, is that I can afford to feed the family buying from there. If I bought from fancy political stores I couldn't feed the family. So, it's to Sam's Club, Sunday morning, fill the back of my little pickup truck and leave the organic food market to the rich gringos.

It's lovely to hear you help the Indian family Patrick. I have some lovely Iraqi refugee neighbours who I take shopping and to the library, they scour the shop for the cheapest products, but I'm happy I don't have to eat stale veggies and can choose where my dollar goes.
We chose the area where we live, because of the orange blossom perfume in the air, the oranges are fantastic too, now they're only sold from a few private houses because the trees have been pulled out. Oranges from the US and other places have taken their place. I've seen mangoes from Mexico too, they looked nice but I never buy them on principle.
The supermarkets here have been competing over the price of milk and farmers, who in my book are the salt of the earth are struggling and some are unable to continue. If we don't support them we'll all be drinking milk from China which will contain melamine and other gross additives.
The slick middle men and CEO's are sending our farmers broke.