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 Post subject: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2010 08:45 
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hey there. I am currently taking part in a class on ethics this semester, and in our class the subject of abortion came on a few occasions. In the past I tended to be a little more lenient on the subject saying if the abortion takes place at an early enough stage in the pregnancy it might not be such a big deal. I seemed to have been pretty unlearned in this area and was unaware that it is legal may places in North America (i'm not sure about all) you can have an abortion at any time in the pregnancy. I also had the view that pregnancy as a result of rape might be justified, but after taking this class I'm not sure. After all it's not the babies fault, and adoption is always an option for the baby.

a fetus, no matter how far along in its developmental process, is still a human life and should be valued as such. I understand the rights of the woman but what about the rights of the baby as a separate individual, does it not also have a right to a life?

do people understand the after math of abortion before they get one? there is quite an amount of proof saying that many women experience severe emotional complications after having abortions.

Is it really the choice of the mother to get the abortion? A statistic i found said that 64% of American women who have had abortions felt pressured by other into getting one.
Code:
V.M Rue et. al., "Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women," [i]Medical Science Monitor[/i] 10(10):SR5-16,2004


I would like to know what you think. is abortion justifiable? Is it a good idea to make abortion so readily available when it might not even be the choice of the woman? i would like to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2010 20:56 
http://www.ethics.org.au/ethics-forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=339

Please read the posts in the above URL. This is current information and viewpoints. You questions appear to be answered from my perspective in that URL. Any new points or thoughts, please raise them.

Enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 21 May 2010 01:42 
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Mort wrote:

I must first point out that an act cannot be evil nor wrong if it doesn't bring harm upon a conscious being; an entity cannot experience evil—nor anything else—unless it is conscious.


How does an unconscious adult fit into this definition of doing good or evil?

An unconscious hospital patient can still have good or evil deeds done to them.
Unconscious people are also capable of hearing what goes on around them

Babies in the womb feel pain and react to light.
Its more convenient to regard them as just a blob of tissue, but why are Trevor Grace's photos of aborted fetuses threatened with censorship on the internet if this is the case?

http://www.eheart.com/cesarean/babies.html

It also looks like babies recognise good and evil at a much earlier age than thought in previous times.
Scientists have discovered such an awareness is apparent when they are aged six months.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/s ... 120735.ece


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 21 May 2010 18:31 
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Mort wrote:
Christine O wrote:
How does an unconscious adult fit into this definition of doing good or evil? An unconscious hospital patient can still have good or evil deeds done to them.


It seems I have something to apologise for: perhaps, it was better had I used the term 'biologically animate' instead of 'conscious', which should have helped avoid the confusion.

Maybe it’s me, but that doesn’t help to avoid confusion at all. It seems to me that a foetus is “animate” from the moment of conception – it’s alive, it’s growing, it’s developing. How does that help? You’re obviously using some sense of “animate” with which I am unfamiliar, but can you tell me what it is?

Mort wrote:
Yes, of course that the unconscious hospital patient can have good or evil deeds done to them. Howbeit, the patient is only temporarily unconscious. Even Though the act(s) are being done whilst the patient is unconscious, the patient cannot experience any consequences from the act(s) before returning to a conscious state.

That doesn’t distinguish the comatose patient from the foetus, though, does it? The foetus is also only temporarily incapable of experiencing the consequence of acts done to it.

(Of course, if the act done is the killing of the foetus, then it will never “experience” that act. But the same is true for the comatose patient.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 21 May 2010 23:52 
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The comatose patient can be represented at law therefore legally the patient exists as a being with defendable interests; in like manner the unborn child can be represented at law and there have been cases in NSW where persons have been convicted for harming the unborn.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 25 May 2010 10:11 
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Mort wrote:
[ 'Life' has a slightly different meaning to the biologist in comparison to the philosopher. Looking upon it from such a position, the bacterium and the embryo have something in common – they both are alive yet unconscious.

I disagree; I believe it does. The patient is currently in an unconscious state, but the patient was conscious earlier in time—last week, perhaps; the unborn fetus, on the other hand, was not. Think about it this way – the patient has lived until this moment, enjoying life, making contributions to society, having desires and attachments; the unborn has done none of these things. Look, should the patient die to-morrow or next Friday, there are likely to be people who shall mourn over the patient—hir kin, hir spouse, friends, associates, even the neighbours—and likewise, there could be people who will gloat over hir death. In contrast, the unborn has no one to neither mourn nor gloat over hir death. Why? It is simple – the unborn didn't get the chance to become an individual, to experience this world, to make changes in it; the unborn has no good nor evil deeds. Hence no one knows what kind of a person would've the unborn turn out to become had it been granted the chance.



You can compare a fetus to bacteria for the purpose of this argument if you like, but that is the only time such a unatural comparison would ever be made. Values cannot be ignored. If I woke up one morning and instead of the usual sand from a nearby construction site covering my patio, there was gold dust, I'd decide on a different course of action than usual. I'd collect the gold dust and search for a buyer, as opposed to disposing of the sand. So would anyone else I'm guessing.

There is a link below to a story in our news yesterday. Grieving parents tried unsuccessfully to bring a murder charge against the intoxicated driver, who killed their unborn thirty two week old unborn daughter. Just to demonstrate that people do indeed grieve for the unborn.

http://www.news.com.au/national/bring-j ... 5870330722


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 25 May 2010 14:00 
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Mort wrote:
My understanding is that being alive isn't enough to be able to sense. Scientifically speaking, there's a clear line between being alive & being conscious. Id est, the bacterium is alive but is not conscious; in spite of having the ability to produce such biological processes as digestion and reproduction, it doesn't have the ability to experience; the bacterium is unconscious. 'Life' has a slightly different meaning to the biologist in comparison to the philosopher. Looking upon it from such a position, the bacterium and the embryo have something in common – they both are alive yet unconscious.

Sure. There is certainly a distinction between being alive, and being conscious. But the foetal human and the comatose human are (a) both alive, and (b) both not conscious. Thus far, there is nothing to distinguish between them.

Mort wrote:
The patient is currently in an unconscious state, but the patient was conscious earlier in time—last week, perhaps; the unborn fetus, on the other hand, was not. Think about it this way – the patient has lived until this moment, enjoying life, making contributions to society, having desires and attachments; the unborn has done none of these things.

OK, so one difference is that the comatose human was conscious at some point in the past, whereas the foetus will be conscious at some point in the future (if events take their normal course).

It’s still not clear to me, though, why that should be a material difference when it comes to the morality of killing either of them. If anything, that consideration should work the other way. After all, the comatose patient has been conscious; he has had the experiences and benefits that consciousness brings. This is an unalterable historical fact which my killing him now cannot change. Whereas my killing the foetus will prevent it ever attaining consciousness. It will therefore affect consciousness much more profoundly than my killing the comatose patient. If we have an ethical obligation to respect consciousness, then my killing the foetus would seem to be more ethically troubling than my killing the comatose patient.

Mort wrote:
Look, should the patient die to-morrow or next Friday, there are likely to be people who shall mourn over the patient—hir kin, hir spouse, friends, associates, even the neighbours—and likewise, there could be people who will gloat over hir death. In contrast, the unborn has no one to neither mourn nor gloat over hir death. Why? It is simple – the unborn didn't get the chance to become an individual, to experience this world, to make changes in it; the unborn has no good nor evil deeds. Hence no one knows what kind of a person would've the unborn turn out to become had it been granted the chance.

But now you are talking about the feelings and awareness of others, not of the subject who is to be killed. The logic of your position is that, if no-one would mourn the comatose patient, or have any feelings one way or the other about his death, killing him is not ethically problematic. That’s a fairly brutal conclusion; most people will hesitate before affirming it.

And what you’re really saying, I think, is the only value the comatose patient has (or the foetus has, I assume) lies in how other people feel about him, or in the fact that other people feel about him at all; that he has no inherent moral dignity or value. If that’s correct then his own past consciousness is irrelevant to this question, isn’t it?


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 27 May 2010 18:24 
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The trap in this question is, that abortion is used in different circles as a 'status marker'. Its like being a Collingwood supporter - if you are one, it will be manifest in your attitudes to all football teams.

In America and many Christian circles in the UK and Australia, it signifies you are 'on the right side' to be what they call 'pro-life', ie hold that abortion is murder from the moment of conception, ie joining the sperm and egg cells. This is apparently very important to many people in htse demographics.

On the pro-choice side, I have also seen frothing fulmination about any suggestion a person may favour any limit whatever on the right to abortion, up to the moment of birth and possibly after in the partial-birth abortion controversy. The position that only the pregnant person can decide and their freedom and rights are absolute against all others is an important way of displaying moral status to those in this basket. The demographics are pretty predictable.

So for the whole issue you run the risk of having your ideas perverted and misrepresented by either of these extremes as soon as you press one of their hot buttons.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 27 May 2010 19:16 
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So the original poster has thrown a little hand grenade into our mix, and retreated, never making a second post. The name of the poster may be the answer to the headline question... I think I just fed a troll. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 27 May 2010 19:19 
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Not so much a troll, as somebody who wanted us to do his homework for him.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 27 May 2010 22:17 
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Quote:
. . . i would like to know.


So now he/she knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010 14:30 
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It seems this issue is as much to do with forcing women to bear children, as it is to enable men the absolute right to breed.

On a finer point, look after the woman and you look after the unborn.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2010 21:45 
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Phil73 wrote:
It seems this issue is as much to do with forcing women to bear children, as it is to enable men the absolute right to breed.


Or forcing reasonable people to join one of two packs of mad dogs.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2010 16:45 
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Too true.

A man was recently ex-communicated from the Catholic church for getting a 9 year old victim of a rape an abortion.

Another recent case, (in the middle east) a woman raised charges after being raped by 3 men but was ruled to be stoned for not fighting them off.

The argument is like that of rape, whether the willful conduct of one party to act without consent in the life of another should be allowed or disallowed, and in abortion whether you consider all attempts at reproduction regardless of form or affect as "OK".

In the discussion about sex education, it was discussed whether kids should be taught an abstinence approach. This is why I agree with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2010 08:37 
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I am constantly amazed at the effort that is expended in this discussion regarding abortions. When confronting this question we should be reasonable and understand that life exist on a continuum, though various phases such as that of new born, teens, middle age, senior. I have great difficulty understanding the changing value people place on a individuals life along this continuum. All life should be held precious no matter where on this continuum we are discussing life. Great discussion and evaluation should be expended on the disruption of a life, weather this individual is beloved, a criminal, or the quote enemy, they all share a common thread of humanity. Therefore, equally deserving of equal consideration before we glibly dismiss them as non human or enemies or animals are another phase we attach to soothe or conscience and pretend that extinguish their lives is justifiable.

By, adding the adjective innocent, fetus, unborn were are in my opinion attempting to persuade though language manipulation justification for our disregard for the value of those lives we feel are inferior and therefore not worthier of consideration. Our worse that somehow these being are of a class that should be held in higher esteem then any other life form. All life has a right to be considered as valuable who among us do we designate and elevate to the status of god to designate these life forms as inferior? Or should this decision be left to the individuals, who society will hold responsible for the rearing of and protection on these lives?

Where do the rest of society abrogate their responsibility to show compassion and aide the lives that through no fault or actions of their control have created this lives. If you support war, the death penalty or argue for the session of the societies support of the lives of these offenders then, do an about face and wax philosophic about the rights of the innocent lives in my opinion are doing a serious disservice to humanity in all of its rich forms.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2010 16:35 
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From your comment, I understood your value for life to be exact and unbending. Yet what of it when one person's value for their life means the loss, ruin or abuse anothers?


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2010 19:58 
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This article highlights the reality of what abortion really is, and no euphanisms, such as "pro choice" can disguise the fact that it is murder.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/abort ... 167u0.html


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2010 03:27 
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I don't think anyone disagrees that there is a line between what is morally right and what is morally wrong. As with all moral debates there is never a perfect moral.

If you were to take the stance that all pregnancies where 'sacred' and therefore should be protected you would be acting immorally towards women who were raped, impregnated or sexually assaulted, or the man who was preyed upon by a gold digging female. I think the real question here is whether you consider impregnation sexual assault?

In my opinion, a woman (or man) who suffers or cries when she discovers she is pregnant has been assaulted by defintion of the nature of what underlies the term consent and the extent to which consent is understood, ie I concented to sex not the rest of my life, my income or my right to choose the partner I have children with, which is what we have marriage proposals for, if people do not feel they can raise a child why should they be forced? You may add your adoption argument here.

Not forgetting we are coming from an age when female education was considered unnecessary to a time where the suffering of women is recognised, and the education of women seen as necessary to avert gutteral or if you prefer immoral behaviour.

If I had a daughter which thankfully in this world I don't, and she came to me crying as a result of an unwanted pregnancy I would find the cause and upon necessity assist her in any way to return her life to the state it was before she had been 'sexual assaulted'. I say necessity for the unknown potential damage an abortion could cause; the major matter when taking a stance based on new scientific discovery.

It has taken many years to establish my opinion, and great suffering and at the end of the day I rest on this.. why any woman should cry when she finds out she is pregnant is beyond me if not out of assault, why anyone's life should be negatively affected if affairs are conducted properly and not just due to their own failure/regret is also beyond me, to obtain an abortion without consent or from a person of unsound mind when there is reasonable grounds to suspect one is of unsound mind, or without a reasonable cause for seeking an abortion such as substance abuse or unfitness to raise a child or as I believe impregnation, is murder. Anything else is not immoral to lives as they stand and therefore is not murder.

What defines abortion as murder over killing, such as death caused by self-defense, is the intent and means by which the abortion is obtained, ie manipulation, coercion, force or assault, (ie against the will of the person) all are considered abortions whether surgical or not.

P.S. killing if in self-defense is justifiable, is not abortion? Or for that matter killing during war, we do not consider that murder, not forgetting the people of Darwin during WW2; a reality check for any no war hippies no doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2010 10:51 
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The justification for abortion comes from the same dark and cunning place in our thought processes as it did in Hitler's when he validated the need to rid Germany of the Jews.
Hitler convinced the German people they'd have better lives if the Jews didn't control all the financial institutions. This may have been true but he should have resisted the urge to kill them all.

It's not for us humans to decide who should live or who should die.

Did you read the link two posts back, about the young trainee who was traumatised after being ordered to throw a live baby into a bucket of the formaldehyde?

Would you like that to happen to your son or daughter in their workplace Phil?


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 Post subject: Re: Is abortion justifiable
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2010 15:11 
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Good lord no.

But neither would I like to see my daughter forced to bear a child she did not want to have, that to me would be equally barbaric.


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